Curse

Bio-Flame · Mar 22, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

I've been playing since Launch so I am not a newbie to the game, although I am fairly new to "serious" PvP.
My Guild is now more seriously focused into PvP and especially GvG.
At the moment we are no longer complete newbies since we have played quite a lot in the last month but obviously our skill is still quite low when compared to other more experienced guilds.

We favor the split team strategy at the moment. We usualy go with the current "gank" squad build:
War/E Axe/Gale
Ranger/Mo Damage dealer with interrupts
Ele/Mo multi-purpose character with blind, draw conditions and damage
Mo/Me Boon with E-drain/Drain enchant

The "Flag" team is very much alike this one but one could say that they have slightly more defensive abilities.
Also most of the time they are only 3 due to the flagrunning duties.
We sometimes change the builds but I'd say that more than 50% of the times we go with this setup.
We lost some, won some others and lost some we should have won - good way to learn not to repeat the same mistakes again.

Anyway, I've noticed an increase in Hexes since the Skill Update after the Championships (maybe caused by the Lieut's Helm nerf?).
Also I've noticed the trend to most teams having 2 E-denial Mesmers which not only deal huge direct damage but drain energy and thus prevent healing.

Some teams we faced had Hexers with Blurring Vision, Snares, Blinding Bots (not really a condition but..

) and other teams had the 2 E-denial Mesmers.
These teams gave us a lot of trouble, most especially (and unsurprisingly) the Me E-denials which totally owned us if we were "unsplit".
Even if we did split - which we did - 1 Mesmer would make our monk's lives a living hell.

I've seen some teams - like EvIL - using the 2 E-denial Me with 2 Ele/Mo Air/Water snaring/blinding/blurring build.
That build has awesome anti-warrior skills and also huge anti-caster/monks effectiveness making most teams that relly on "physical" damage (Wars, Rangers...) very weak against them.
I've been thinking that if we faced such a setup I don't think there would be any chance for a split team to win.
Obviously, I am not implying I would be facing top-notch players as EvIL's. What I mean is that if we faced even-skilled players and they used such a build I don't think we could win even if they split to match us.

So, my question is:

Is there any way for a split team to have a good chance to win against these 2 E-denial, 2 Ele/Mo blinding/Snaring teams?

I've thought about having a more dedicated Interrupter Ranger in the "gank" squad but I am afraid that would reduce the squad's damage potential and pressure effectiveness.
I've also thought on replacing the Ele/Mo for a Mesmer in the squad but that might reduce the Monk's protection since the Ele/Mo greatly helps with keeping the monk alive.
Removing the Warrior, the main damage dealer, is out of the question.

My main idea is increasing the hex removal ability of the gank squad and having the ranger to interrupt the Mesmer - easier said than done though. We tried that before and it's really not easy especially if the Snaring/Blinding/Blurring Eles keep their atention on the ranger.
Any ideas/suggestions?

Bio-Flame

JR · Mar 22, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Post up the full build you use, along with skills and attributes. It will make it a bit easier to go over and comment.

Byron · Mar 22, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

So, my question is:

Is there any way for a split team to have a good chance to win against these 2 E-denial, 2 Ele/Mo blinding/Snaring teams?

Only with old fashioned hard work and team coordination, IMO. This trend of 2 Me 2 E/Mo teams is the crux of post-patch balanced teams, and that's why I've been seeing them prettty often in <100 GvG. Splitting may be good for the gank, but so long as the enemy team is aware of your movements, a split-build probably won't hold up.

tafy69 · Mar 22, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

the dual surge teams are tricky to beat, You can do some simple things that will greatly improve your chances tho

Power Drain on your monk, this is even easier to do when you are split. Just Powerdrain his burn or surge and you should be in good condition for a while.

You didnt mention if u had a Necro in the team, if you did a Blood Ritual would help a boatload.

Just run warriors with plague touch if its conditions that effects your warriors most, if you find hexes are the worst offenders then there are other options altho not as effective as plague touch. Hope this helps

Bio-Flame · Mar 22, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

We divide the team into Team A (the "gank" squad) and Team B (the flag squad).
Obviously the roles sometimes get reversed during battles but usually the gank squad tries to attack and the flag team tried to hold up the flag.

Team A: Gank Squad

War/E Axe - Main damage dealer

Eviscerate (E)
Penetrating Blow
Executioner's Strike
Gale
Sprint
Frenzy
Heal Sig
Rez Sig

Axe - 12+3 (or 12+3+1 sometimes)
Stre- 9 +1
Tactics - 9+1
Air -5

3 options for shields: Grognar's Defender, -3/+60 health shield while hexed, Thorgal's Shield
Has both Lieut's Helm and the +1 Helm, swaps when appropriate

Ranger/Mo - Damage Dealer with some interrupts

Savage Shot
Punishing Shot (E)
Power shot
Dual Shot
Whirlwind Defense
Kindle Arrows
Remove Hex
Rez Sig

Expertise - 10+3+1
Wilderness Survival - 11+1
Marksmanship - 10+1
Vampiric Recurve Bow 5/1, +30 health

Ele/Mo - multi-purpose character

Lightning Orb
Lightning Strike
Blinding Flash
Ice Prison
Shard Storm
Draw Conditions
Rez Sig
Ether Prodigy (E)

Air - 10+3+1
Water- 10+1
Energy Storage - 11+1
Protection Prayers - 1

Mo/Me - Boon Protector with E-drain

RoF
Guardian
Mend Ailment
Protective Spirit
Drain Enchantment
Energy Drain (E)
Inspired Hex
Divine Boon

Divine favor - 11+3
Protection Prayers- 10+1
Inspiration Magic - 10

Has all the standard equipment - two +15 e/-1 regen; negative focus and Yakkslapper.

Team B - Flag team

War/E Axe - Main damage dealer

BackBreaker (E)
Crushing Blow
Mighty Blow
Hammer Bash
Sprint
Tiger's Fury
Rez Sig
Fertile Season

Hammer - 12+3 (or 12+3+1 sometimes)
[B]Stre- 9 +1
Best Mastery - 9

Vampiric 5/1 Hammer, +30 Life
Has both Lieut's Helm and the +1 Helm, swaps when appropriate

Ranger/Mo - Defensive crippling ranger

Savage Shot
Crippling Shot (E)
Distracting Shot
Penetrating Attack
Storm Chaser
Apply Poison
Troll Unguent
Rez Sig

[B]Expertise - 11
Marksmanship - 15
Wilderness Survival - 9
Vampiric Recurve Bow 5/1, +30 health
Poisoner Recurve Bow,+5 Armor

Ele/Mo - multi-purpose character

Lightning Orb
Lightning Strike
Enervating Charge
Blinding Flash
Heal Party
Remove Hex
Rez Sig
Ether Prodigy (E)

Air - 10+3+1
Energy Storage - 11+1
Healing Prayers - 10

Mo/Me - Boon Protector with E-drain

RoF
Guardian
Mend Ailment
Protective Spirit
Drain Enchantment
Energy Drain (E)
CoP
Divine Boon

Divine favor - 11+3
Protection Prayers- 10+1
Inspiration Magic - 10

Has all the standard equipment - two +15 e/-1 regen; negative focus and Yakkslapper.

Notes and Explanations:

Both teams are very much alike. The main difference is that the Gank squad has a slightly more offensive attitude and thus only one monk. Thus almost all of its players have some sort of self-defense and/or self-heal.
The Ele/Mo is the most difficult character to play. He can help with spikes, can remove nasty conditions, can assist the monk through snares and blinds. Since the Monk is solo in that team, the main condition remover is the Ele/Mo through Draw Conditions. And only removes the really nasty conditions aflicting the Damage Dealers - namely Crippled and Blind. That way the Monk can save his energy for "better" things.
Also, since Draw Conditions has a 2 scd recharge time it can keep up with Blinding Flash very nicely. I thought on Mend Contions but I've found out that Draw conditions is better in this build and strategy,imo.
The Monk doesn't have CoP since we thought that being solo he'd be hard-pressed for energy and thus Inspired Hex which can also be used on others.

The "Flag" Squad has some odd choices.
The most unusual one is Fertile Season - mainly against a Spike team that doesn't follow our split. I am thinking about removing it now but when I designed the build we had had some tough experiences with Spike teams so....

In the last couple of GvGs we didn't take Fertile Season anymore so there's a slot there.
The Crip Ranger has a pretty obvious role - protecting the monk, applying conditions, crippling the flagrunner and interrupting when possible. Can also be the flag runner.
The flagrunner can also be the Ele/Mo especially when the pressure isn't that great or when he's rather low on energy.
The Ele/Mo and the Monk are made to increase the survivability of their squad since most of the times we experienced that our opponents tried to swarm the flag.
Thus, having a Monk and a Heal Party spammer with Blind and Weakness we wanted to "stall" our opponents so as to give our gank squad the time they need to do their job.
Obviously, if the other team splits, the Flag team will try to secure us the flag.

Weaknesses in the build that I can see:

1 :First and foremost - hexes. There aren't too many ways to deal with hexes with this build and against a hexer/degen build we suffered because of that.
I tried to compensate by increasing one more Remove Hex on the Gank squad (which originally didn't have it) but I am still not sure.

2: our lack of Mesmers and thus our ability to pressure the other team's spellcasters is mainly through "physical" means - Warriors and Interrupting Rangers.
So basically if our opponents use Blind/Snares/Blurs to shutdown these two classes our offensive abilites are almost reduced to 0. This is obviously a potential problem.

3: There's another issue that I can see and it's about the Flag Squad lack of serious firepower. If the ocasion arises in that the Flag squad is needed to attack, they lack some offense abilities and thus will not be able to kill too many things.

Well, that's it. There might be some things left unsaid and some choices left unexplained but the important stuff is here.
Please don't tear me apart too much though

twicky_kid · Mar 22, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Here are some major flaws your to build.

The biggest one you have is NO MESMER

2 rangers with interrupts is still no sub for a mesmer. You are getting beat by e-denial because you yourself are not using it. In a matter of 5 seconds a mes can hit 10e at nearby range another 20e and 160 to one target and 80 to nearby. I wouldn't ingore those numbers because an e/mo can deal the dmg but cannot produce that 30e drain.

You also have monks with e drain to add to the edenial so that is good.

I suggest changing 1 out for a mesmer with e surge, e burn, sig of weariness, mind wrack, diversion, drain enchant, inspire hex/remove hex, and resurrect.

With 11-12 fast cast you should have a 4 sec resurrect for a hard res.

JR · Mar 22, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Here are some major flaws your to build.

The biggest one you have is NO MESMER

Errrr... Saying a build is bad because it lacks a player class, is like saying a car is slow because it is painted green. Don't be so narrow minded.

Foppe · Mar 22, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Dont say u need a surge mesmer to deal with the enemy surge mes's, there are other ways to do that. Like this build features 2 rangers which can interrupt surge/burn.

twicky_kid · Mar 22, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

The meta game is changing back to e denial pressure builds. If split teams are to survive they are going to have to stop relying on rangers for all of its interrupts. Blurred vision, guardian, aegis, watch yourself, and blind completely hose rangers trying to interrupt.

Mesmers shutdown by drain all of their energy. It works best again split teams and also spike teams. Its just a better solution than ranger will be. Dual>punshing is more of an addition spike. surge>burn is also a decent spike with the addition of shut down a player for 5-10 seconds.

Pointing out a major flaw in his build compared to the current meta game.

icemonkey · Mar 22, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Errrr... Saying a build is bad because it lacks a player class, is like saying a car is slow because it is painted green. Don't be so narrow minded.

BUT JR I SAW A SLOW GREEN CAR ONCE!! IT MUST BE TRUE.

tafy69 · Mar 23, 2006, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Please can people stop advising him to run dual surge lol

The main weakness in the build is the air eles, last season a team like this woulda done quite well with eles and warriors spiking together. But its definately out this season, no doubt about it. Out Out Out!

Your better off thinking up a new build, take into account most of the teams you will meet will be dual surge and build in defences for that.